A new Peacock three-part docuseries gives a fascinating insight into the mind of Charles Manson. Making Manson, which premieres November 19, features taped conversations between the notorious killer and his long-time prison pen pal John Michael Jones.
The two because close when Manson was serving life in prison for first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder in connection to the killing of seven people including pregnant actress Sharon Tate. Their friendship grew into hours of intimate conversations recorded over 20 years up until Manson’s death in 2017.
The docuseries also features interviews with members of the Manson “Family” and relatives of victims, some speaking on-camera for the first time. They themselves also listen to the recordings of Manson speaking and react to hearing his voice after so many years.
Peacock calls the project “the most comprehensive Manson portrait yet on film or television.” Before the episodes dropped, the streamer released a clip containing a shocking revelation from Manson. He claimed that he lived in Mexico in the 1960s and ‘got involved in a couple of killings.” This was before the 1969 series of killings he orchestrated by the “Family.”
Here director Billie Mintz and EP Kate Maddigan of Renowned Films give insight into the making of the doc and what else audiences may uncover by watching.
Pictured: John Michael Jones — (PEACOCK)
So much has been done on Charles Manson. What brought you to this unique approach?
Billie Mintz: That was one of the challenges of creating a project where there have been so many others. None of those had Charles Manson in this archival that nobody has ever heard of before. This is 20 years of a relationship that was not conducted by a journalist. It was more of an intimate conversation between two men for 20 years. That had its pros and cons. The pro is that it wasn’t a journalist. The con is that it wasn’t a journalist.
We had to take a journalistic approach to this content that was giving Manson a voice that was not being questioned. That’s where we came in and why we had a team of researchers and other story producers that vigorously fact-checked what he was saying. Then creating the experiment of bringing these people into the room who were responsible for the narrative we’ve heard for 50 years and played them the tapes and candidly saw how they would respond. We got this really amazing dialogue going between people who had an alternative view of the story, people who created the narrative, and Manson himself posthumously chiming in on this narrative. I think that makes this so novel.
What do you make of John’s friendship with Manson? How did he feel about the project?
Kate Maddigan: John was all-in with his relationship with Manson. It was a long conversation. We were looking for this unique angle about this story. When we started our relationship with John and shared all of this audio, we could see he had a really unique relationship with Manson. He is very emotional about the relationship, regardless of what Manson did or was. At the end of the day, they were friends. He was very nervous about sharing this intimate portrayal of a friendship spanning 20 years. It has been a big part of his life and impacted his life.
It was quite a journey as John relistened to all the tapes again. He shared them all with us and relived all those memories that were packed away for a while. He has been dedicated to the project and determined to get Manson’s voice out there. I think John’s main motivation was that Manson got a chance to speak. He encouraged Charlie to speak more and do more interviews across their relationship. He never did or would, but he always was keen to say to John, “Are you recording this?” He knew what he was doing. John feels responsible for holding Manson’s voice and memories and his narrative in his hands. He is excited about finally getting Manson’s side of the story out there.
Perhaps most intriguing is learning about Manson’s upbringing through his words. You hear him talking about having a terrible childhood and how it shaped who he became.
Kate: As it’s called Making Manson, that was a big part of what we wanted to try to understand. It was important for us to look back at what led to the person. We wanted to get underneath the myth and the real person behind the mask as we call it in the show.
Billie: We never really heard from Manson what we knew about Manson. It’s not to sympathize with Manson, but it’s important to humanize him so we can understand what really happened outside this sensational, terrible story that has been told about terrible murders. More about the humanity involved that will bring us the closure that I don’t think we’ve had closure because the story before, in my opinion, was ridiculous that was told. I think there is a truer story that gets us closer to the truth.
Pictured: Catherine Share ‘Gypsy’ — (Photo by: PEACOCK)
What was it like to witness the subject’s reactions in real-time to hearing Manson on those recordings?
Billie: The Manson we know is the collective Manson, the myth. It’s the mask of Manson. Everyone played into that. There is one really insightful thing Manson says, among other things, that he never had a beard. This whole Manson we know is this bearded cult leader. He explains that no, they just never gave him a razor. The reason he didn’t shave off the beard, which is very telling, is that he didn’t want to sell out. The Manson we know is the guy in these 60 Minutes interviews he did over the years where he played the role he feels they assigned to him. Of these people, even the Manson family members…They never had a long relationship as John Michael Jones did. Here they are listening in on a Manson they’ve never heard before.
That was fascinating, not necessarily hearing Manson talking as much in the riddles, but we had to be careful with the topic. Especially, the Manson family members, who went through terrible things being adjacent to these horrific crimes. We had to create a humane space for them to walk through. We had to build a lot of relationships because we were playing who they felt was their abuser. There was a point where Dianne Lake at the end said she didn’t know what truth was. She only spent about a year or two with Manson and then an entire lifetime without him, telling the story over and over again. I think for the first time with Renowned [Pictures], we investigate this story with discernment and critical thinking outside the gatekeepers who told this story. I think that presented quite a juxtaposition for them and something new for many of them to explore.
Kate: The audience hasn’t heard his true voice. They see snippets of interviews where he only talks about the crimes. For them to hear these anecdotes and others reminisce about their life with him…It was very important for us to talk to as many people as possible close to the story. We were in touch with Bobby BeauSoleil in prison, Tex [Charles Watson]. We wanted to speak to as many people as we could to get the ultimate 360 view of what happened. Who he was, how the terrible events came about, how life led up to it, and what led these innocent children, as described, to follow him and turn them into brutal killers.
A clip was released ahead of the premiere revealing he may have killed while in Mexico. How was it hearing these revelations come about? What else can you tease viewers will find out?
Billie: We were looking for the needles in the haystacks. We had an entire team to go through 20 years of recordings. We were looking for specifics. He straight out admits he left some dead bodies and murdered people. I imagine you’re saying may have because it comes down to do we believe him and think about what’s true. I think the premise of the show is we aren’t going to answer the questions of what is true or isn’t true, but we do present something the audience can walk away with in asking these questions. I think that is a big part of the show. We have many insights. It becomes what else is Manson going to say because we’ve never heard Manson.
Kate: One of the key things is taking the audience on the journey. There are people out there who think he shouldn’t have been incarcerated for these crimes, but I think hearing from Manson up until the time he protested innocence and until now there are people who presumed he didn’t have anything to do with hit. I think what unfolds here is a much more complex story. By the end of the film we take the audience on a journey of what innocence means and how much …He has never shown any regret, remorse, or apology, but you get a sense that he thought about what happened a lot more as he got older. I think that is interesting for viewers to see.
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What was your takeaway from digging into the mind of Manson?
Kate: He is very charismatic. I can see how these people got sucked in. You get sucked into his world. You can’t understand how these people got sucked in on the surface. Like what are they stupid? Then once you spend a long time with his voice in your head and the story, you have more empathy for how this loyal and charismatic character at the center created this group of people that would literally do anything for him. He is charming
Billie: I think one thing we were told the story about Manson from 1969 to 1970. We were a different society at that time. That story stuck. I think we owe it to everybody to retell the story in 2024 that is more sophisticated, discerning, and smart. I think that myself and everybody else will walk away with a big huh at the end of it. We’re going to go back and look at the story with these ideas in our head that we need to really reexamine these stories. That’s what I think with what I walked away with and people will walk away with.
Making Manson premiere, November 19, Peacock
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