Participants from a notorious psychological experiment that shocked America have reunited more than 50 years later for The Stanford Prison Experiment: Unlocking The Truth, a new three-part docuseries on National Geographic.
In August 1971, Stanford University psychologist Dr. Philip Zimbardo recruited a group of college students to take part in a study about prison life. He paid them $15 a day and divided them into two groups: guards and inmates. Over the next few days, in a simulated prison environment, he watched the “guards” become increasingly brutal in their behavior towards the “prisoners.”
The experiment was supposed to last two weeks but stopped after six days amid mental breakdowns, appalling living conditions, and a dangerous power dynamic that went way too far.
In the following decades, Zimbardo emerged at the forefront of discussions regarding the idea that good people can do bad things under certain circumstances. The Stanford Prison Experiment became the subject of movie adaptations, books, and a punk band, and permeated into pop culture. However, in the eyes of those who experienced the experiment firsthand the whole story hasn’t been told of what went on in that makeshift jail until now.
The project brings never-before-heard stories and exclusive firsthand accounts from the participants. This re-examination also sees the “prisoners’ and “prison guards” coming together to reflect on what they went through and what happened in their lives since. Ahead of the docuseries’ premiere, we sat down with director and executive producer Juliette Eisner, “Guard” Dave Eshelman, and “Prisoner 416” Clay Ramsay.
RECREATION – A Stanford Prison Experiment guard blows a whistle in prisoners’ faces. (National Geographic/Katrina Marcinowski)
How much did you know about the topic before diving into this?
Juliette Eisner: I knew very little. I wasn’t a psychology major, nor did I study it in high school or college. Essentially, this whole project was born out of curiosity about why there was so little about this experiment that was accessible to the public. What got me going was very few of the participants of this experiment have really spoken out before. It was always Dr. Zimbardo owning the narrative. I decided I would try to find them. That was somewhat of a difficult process as they were only known for their prisoner number or guard alias. I went through the Stanford archives and found their names. I started calling them. They were the ones who opened up this whole big story that hadn’t been known before.
You actually spoke to Dr. Zimbardo before he died. This new sit-down with him doesn’t show up until the third episode. Tell me about your decision to hold off until then.
We definitely had many conversations about the structure of the series. We decided to come to it the way I did, which was naturally as a filmmaker. The first episode is very much the story you think you know. The second episode gets to unravel that story, drops some bombs, and has some reveals, twists, and turns. In the third episode, thankfully we did get to interview Dr. Zimbardo. It was amazing to get to sit with him over the course of two days. He gets to have his say at the end. That also has some fun components to it. That was a structure that felt most natural and had this entertaining factor to it. I think it worked in the end.
Dr. Philip Zimbardo sits for an interview. (Credit: National Geographic/Christopher Gill)
Was there a discussion of having him there when the guards and the prisoners reunited and you set up that set to recreate that experience?
We did want to keep it somewhat separate. However, that would have been interesting. He was quite old when we filmed and was aware of that and wanted to respect that too. I also think it gave the guys the opportunity to say what they wanted to say and get to experience that hallway again the way they experienced it before. Zimbardo really wasn’t in the hallway that much. It was really just them, prisoners and guards on their own a lot of the time.
What was it like getting to know the guards and prisoners together?
I was very pleased it was a happy reunion and not a traumatic one. Some of them were more affected than others. Some of them took it in stride and went on with their lives. Chuck Burton, one of the guards, called it one of the three most pivotal experiences of his life and really shaped the way he went forward as an adult. It was interesting to see that spectrum too. The different ways it affected these people.
You also reached out to Thibault Le Texier, whose written work has scrutinized and debunked the experiment in many ways. How important was it to have his contribution?
Thibault is such a brilliant historian and researcher. I’m half-French. He wrote a book about the Stanford Prison Experiment in French, and I was able to read it. Now it’s published in English, but back then it wasn’t. He was this glue. Nobody knows the archives better than him. We were so lucky to have him walk us through all of those documents, videos, and audio recordings and to be our guide.
What was your takeaway from the research and accounts?
It was very surprising to me to understand how much had not been revealed in Zimbardo’s narrative that he has been talking about for 50 years. It was shocking. I really didn’t come to this trying to debunk this study. That happened over the course of a lot of conversations as new information came to light. I think in addition to questioning a lot of its validity the show kind of highlights something else about this story. That is a really good storyteller and a showman and someone able to get his narrative out to the world in a compelling way can wield a lot of power. We should all be aware of that and maybe scrutinize these big stories and ideas more so than we would instead of taking them at face value.
What do you want to tell viewers before watching this?
Have an open mind and get ready to be surprised.
The Guard & Prisoner
Clay Ramsay/Dave Eshelman (Credit: National Geographic/Christopher Gill)
“Prisoner” Clay Ramsay went into the experiment as an alternate and was known for going on a hunger strike in response to the conditions the prisoners were living in. Dave Eshelman developed a notorious reputation as “John Wayne” from Cool Hand Luke for how he treated his inmates.
What was your reaction when Juliette reached out about her ideas for this project?
Clay Ramsay: We all mostly had experience being interviewed. I think each of us has got to really say our peace. From the standpoint of my getting anything off my chest I would have wanted to, it is an A plus.
Dave Eshelman: I would add when she first approached me about it I had done so many interviews over the years. I wondered what new take were you going to have about this whole thing. Every time I’ve done an interview where I’ve brought up different concerns, and questions about the way the experiment was done, it always got edited out in the final cut. She convinced me that this would be different because there would be this deep dive with the participants. That she wasn’t there to retell Zimbardo’s narrative. I was all on board after that.
The third episode is really the best part for me because you all get to meet again. What do you remember about that reunion?
Dave: I will say I had no contact with any of the participants after the experiment was over. I think Clay and I had a brief interview that was filmed after, but we all went our merry ways. We didn’t have email back then, so we didn’t keep in touch. It was a real trip to see everyone after 50 years. I may have been worried a little bit that they would have been mad at me. I was happy to find out they had gotten over it.
Clay: it was a really extraordinary day. We had really almost too much to talk about among ourselves, much less do the things the director wanted to happen before the day was over. That is a memory I will cherish. That one day of shooting with all of us together and getting the chance to talk in all kinds of different ways. Both in and out of th camera. It was terrific.
How was it looking back and seeing the footage with today’s eyes?
Clay: Each of us was visited at home. That was in itself a really satisfactory experience. This was at the point where we weren’t sure this film would really see the light of day.
Have you seen the finished product? If so, what do you think?
Clay: Juliette really did a 360-degree vision of the whole thing. You can be a partisan of Zimbardo and watch the entire thing and feel once he gets the innings that he has refuted us. You can have that experience. It’s one possibility. Everyone gets to say what they perceived and it’s shown to you in a way that it’s entirely believable at that time and then the perspective shifts to another person and it happens again from a different angle. It’s really admirable.
How was it taking in Zimbardo’s input?
Clay: It was actually a brand-new story, which has happened every decade with Zimbardo. He will move things around. In what is the final story, he talks about his childhood, which was pretty impoverished in the Bronx of the 1930s, a serious illness he had, the year-and-a-half to two years of hospitalization, and what that did to his interior life and imagination. He leads this into a big story of his views of human nature and motivations. It’s a good show. I never got that from him before. What can I say? When the lights were on and the camera rolled, he did something new.
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What kind of impact do you think this docuseries will have?
Clay: Even if this is not the most interesting subject to you, I think people should turn it on and see it because it’s at a much higher level than a standard TV documentary…It keeps the viewers on their toes. It exceeded the expectations I set for it.
Dave: The impact remains to be seen. Will this be the final treatment of this story since Zimbardo passed away? If it is, I’m glad it got made because as Clay was saying this is a 360-degree view. It went into more detail and depth than any production before. The first one to say, “Maybe Zimbardo’s account of the story isn’t all there is.” For that, I’m very grateful this film was made.
The Stanford Prison Experiment: Unlocking the Truth premiere, November 13, 8/7c, National Geographic (streams next day on Disney+ and Hulu)
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